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Post by morley on Nov 6, 2013 13:17:16 GMT
I was wondering if we could discuss the episode order for season 2 here at Ned's. I am working on a SMK fan fiction "project" and am almost done with season 1. I used Iwsod's revised episode order and it made a lot of sense. Now I am about to begin season 2 and I would like to do the same thing as far as order of the episodes. We have begun to discuss it on the blog here justwalkwithme.com/category/general-smk/episode-order/but we haven't finished the season yet and I don't want to go ahead of where we are on the blog. I thought that maybe we could discuss it here with out influencing Iwsod's final decision for order on JWWM. I won't get to the end of season 2 for a while in my project anyways so I could probably wait until we finish our discussion of the end of season 2 on the blog. So this is what I have on my list: 1. Catch a Mongoose 2. Times 3. Double Agent 4. Legend of 5. Class Act (I actually can't remember why I put this here, I think it may be a blog induced placement) 6. Our Man 7. Bromfield Hall 8. 3 Faces 9. Brunettes 10. Car Wars 11. Possum 12. SOS 13. Spiderweb 14. ARS 15. ALSALS 16. LOTP 17. OOADP 18. DOA 19. Die Twice 20. BO 21. Murder Between Friends 22. Vigilante Mothers Does anybody have an opinion or any input they would like to make? Or, Iwsod, do you want to say anything here that you are waiting to say on the blog. If you don't want to make comments about episodes we haven't covered maybe we could just comment on the first parts of season 2 that we have covered, maybe up to the short hair eps? Thanks for the help, Morley
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Post by iwsod on Nov 6, 2013 22:13:28 GMT
Hi Morley this is a great idea! I’ve already had a think about this stuff myself so I won’t need to stay out of this discussion and you don’t need to worry about influencing my final decision – I love to be influenced in my final decision!!! I just need a chance to think it through myself first before I start discussing it.. or my brain isn’t much help I think! and..hey! it’s not my final decision anyway- you can come up with your own if you like! That said.. I think we can come up with an order together..more or less.. Maybe what I can do is at the end of season 2 post my/our revised episode order ( maybe ‘our’ revised episode order – if you agree with it you know? ) and I can link back to the Neds thread for how we came up with it.. how does that sound? Yeah Morley, I haven’t watched YODT, BO or VM in a long time (I’ve watched MBF because I’m transcribing it for operation sandstorm). so I won’t be much help there – yet! but.. I do have some notes on the other episodes that I’ve made.. and it was on my list to ramp this discussion up a notch once my thesis is done (bring on the end of November) ..so I can start discussing it now a little.. but I won’t have time to go back yet and read all the discussions in the episode posts about it – which is something I really wanted to do because some of the threads have great debates about it .. But.. like I said I have some notes and we have the production order .. and if you want to read those episodes and condense for us the arguments people made for an against the order feel free to just keep track of who’s idea an argument for the positioning of an episode was so we can acknowledge that person. Funny you started this today Morley.. I mentioned something about episode order in the next episode post that is coming up. post 10 of DOA.. you’ll see why.. but I was wondering if DOA should come before OOADP.. something made me think.. but.. you’ll see! Just wanted to let you know I love this idea – and I hope that if there are others out there who enjoy exploring this stuff that you’ll feel free to share your views here with us!!! The more ideas the better! No one person can pick up everything I say! Morley is it okay if we tackle pre haircut season 2 first? that way we can narrow down the discussion a little- and I am guessing if you are beginning season 2 you’d like to firstly discuss the order of the first half of season two. Am I correct? I’ll come back to this thread tonight as my reward for getting work done today .. but I’ll leave you with one thought – the placement of Double Agent is a big problem for me! Because they have shoe-horned in a replacement car and post production decided to insert this episode before charity begins at home, there is no way IMHO to completely reconcile the car and the order.. unless it gets put second last episode of season 1.. which is a bit of a stretch isn’t it! So I’ve accepted that I just have to ignore the car in that episode.. for one week Lee hired a replica of his old buddy so he could say goodbye to it properly or something – LOL Morley could you write a fan fic explaining it??!! and then.. because the europe episodes were filmed differently ie. all munich eps together, london eps together.. things like wardrobe and hair may not be too helpful with the europe eps.. because if you try and order them by that – some of the story doesn’t make sense.. and maybe the story should come first? I think the episodes were planned to be filmed together but shown apart – which I don’t think is standard when they are shooting in LA. Would you agree? Okay.. I shall sign off and get on with my day.. and maybe you (morley) or someone will have replied to this by tonight! Morley can you explain why you ordered the first 7 in that order? I’d love to hear your reasoning. Byeee for now!
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Post by morley on Nov 6, 2013 23:11:08 GMT
I may be able to spend a little bit more time with this later, but basically my reasoning for the first 7 was to take the European episodes and put them in their place according to airing order and insert the other ones in according to their production order. But I can't remember why I put Class Act at #5. I am wondering if it was because of a discussion on JWWM? I am sure I had a reason for it, I just can't remember what it is. I think Lee had to get a loaner from the Agency car pool in Double Agency and all they had was a Porsche... something like that, we could make it work, I am sure. I had 3 Faces of Emily later in season 2, but I put it right before Brunettes because of the blog discussions.
Time to put dinner of the table.
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Post by morley on Nov 6, 2013 23:50:28 GMT
Ok so dinner is left overs and everyone is helping themselves and eating in shifts because it is that kind of a night... So I looked a bit more into why I ordered them that way. I did take the European episode and place them in airing order and I got CBAH out of the line up so that leaves Double Agent, 3 Faces and Class Act as the three US episodes that need to fit in the order before Brunettes, so
1. Mongoose 2. Times and then a US episode - 3. Double Agent, 4. Legend would be next. This was where they had put Charity and Brunettes but we all agree they don't belong here so that left 3 Faces and Class Act. We can't use 3 Face here because we have just met Emily and it seems to repetitive to have her appear again the next week, so that is why I put Class Act here 5. Class Act then I resumed the European episodes 6. Our Man 7. Bromfield Hall, then I put 8. 3 face of Emily
It works for me with the story arch of the relationship, I think.
As I was reading the last Class Act post Debilyn made some comments about Class Act being right before Brunettes and that could be a contributing reason for her hesitancy about working for the Agency (I read that wquickly so I am not sure if I have her idea down quite right)
"debilyn | December 21, 2012 at 12:59 am | Reply
If this episode, this training, came right before Brunettes, I could see Amanda questioning whether she really belongs at the agency or not. But her resolve and the fact that she never gives up, along with some of her “successes” would have caused her to decide to stay. Maybe she was beginning to question herself prior to this training, which would make her act a little hesitantly and a little off-kilter. (but not to this degree)"
Is it ok to copy a post like that here?
Her idea could change the order if we all thought that made sense. When I watched the season in he order I posted above it all worked for me like I said before, especially the flow of the relationship. What do you think?
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Post by morley on Nov 7, 2013 3:05:39 GMT
Iwsod, do you have a list of the episode discussions that have order comments in them? If you did that would make it easier for me to find everyone's ideas.
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Post by iwsod on Nov 7, 2013 5:19:29 GMT
Hiya Morley! Leftovers eh! sometimes leftovers are more yummy than the day you made it I need a diversion from my work here..this is just what I needed! Yeah that would have been smart of me to write down which posts to go back to wouldn't it.. Alas... me dumb! LOL.. I just figured I'd go back and reread through the episodes where the order came up - and make notes as I went.. because that way I could revisit what I had said about the episode order myself - I'm sure I don't remember half of it! But.. I am pretty sure episodes like the ones you have mentioned - A class Act, 3 Faces of Emily, Double agent.. it would have come up then. Oh and in AABH it came up lots because I did felt that the episode should come before BAI. I remember the order of Car wars was hotly debated too.. grappling with whether that should go before Brunettes are in or after.. but I think in the end I figured there were strong arguments for either position - so best to stick with the airing and production orders which had car wars after. So looking at my notes, I've split the order into groups of episodes.. and then I need to work out the order within that group if that makes sense. I've found the script dates for most the episodes.. they are a guide as well that I find useful. but I can't find a script date for Double Agent.. that pesky episode!! The scripts dates have Legend of Das Geisterschloss first.. but that won't fit the order because in TCAM Lee buys Amanda the blue outfit that she eventually arrives in Salzburg in.. so we know TCAM comes before. soooo script dates aren't going to help with the europe episodes they don't match up with the production order- Europe is strange! I've got 1. TCAM 2. TTAAC 3. DA 4. LODG 5. OMIT 6. AABH I did wonder about putting DA first.. Lee is sooo tanned in that one I don't mind having LODG and OMIT together without a US episode between.. because we never know how much time has passed between episodes.. It works that OMIT is after TTAAC - as Amanda is given a job on her own with OMIT. What do you think of TCAM and then AABH immediately?? - I've always thought it strange they would fly Amanda half way around the world to be Lee's window dressing out the front of Hattman house but not sure if it fits.. anyone? Would Amanda be so dreamy on arrival in Salzburg if AABH had already taken place? Anyway, next we have have the tricky episodes.. 3FOE, ACA, BAI, CW and PP... Francine's hair is permed for these episodes.. CW's production order is between BAI and PP... sooo maybe it should go after BAI - but I don't want it straight after BAI! I prefer PP.. meh! I'm not attached to this order though.. thoughts? I don't remember Debilyn's actual comments ( thus why I need to go back) but it sounds good to me. I agree with her logic. I prefer ACA after 3FOE. For me, it fits better after 3FOE and before BAI.. So I would next put maybe (this is not definite all a work in progress!) 7. 3FOE 8. ACA 9. BAI 10. PP 11. CW - I went with CW last out of this lot because it is the last episode we see Lee wearing a tie pin.. The next group of episodes I thought would go together were SOS, ARS, Spiderweb.. Amanda has her new car in ARS and Spiderweb.. and we don't see it in SOS.. but I figured SOS has to come after the previous 11.. I hope I'm making some sense here.. So I am not sure which order to put these three in .. and want to go back and see what the discussion about ARS and Spiderweb was like .. I do think SOS is the first of these three.. but which order to put the other two I haven't settled on yet.. so I guess: 12. SOS 13 & 14. ARS & Spiderweb - but order TBA..
I'll leave it there for now.. Does that help a little ?
I think it's fine to quote people from JWWM.. so long as we acknowledge it.... and maybe just pop a note in the comments at JWWM to let Debilyn know incase she didn't see it - Hey Debilyn, you're a celebrity!
So glad you got this going!
Okay back to my work!
byeeee !
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Post by morley on Nov 7, 2013 12:46:14 GMT
OK, I have two questions. You mentioned your preference for ACA after 3FOE, and CW after PP. Could you elaborate as to why? I still want ACA to come as early in the season as possible I guess. Maybe she could qualify to do overseas currier work in OMIT because she attended Station 1 (even though she didn't pass it ?) Francine's perm could fit too because we don't see her in OMIT and AABH. So she could have gotten it permed before ACA and the continuity would still be there. I am interested in why you like it after 3FOE. But I am open to reasons to put it in other places. And I was one of the ones who liked CW right after BAI because it felt like a direct response from Lee after the events of BAI. It was if he was taking this opportunity to apply what he had learned in that difficult growing experience with Amanda. It does seem as though the episode placement for these first few can't really be determined by costuming or production or even hair styles because of the way they filmed the European ones all at first. If I get a chance to look at the episode discussions today will. Thursdays are crazy days for me so we will see if I do. Anyone else have any ideas?
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Post by Jenbo on Nov 7, 2013 19:09:09 GMT
I'd really like to contribute but quite frankly I can't. I can't even follow all the abbreviations for the episodes LOL. I am useless at this sort of analysis
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Post by debilyn on Nov 7, 2013 19:37:10 GMT
No problem in using my quote, Morley. I'm glad I could help. I'm not a hog about episode order because I can deal with the relationship ups and downs pretty well. Mainly because the relationship my hubby and I had before marriage was a real roller-coaster, so I can relate to Amanda and Lee's relationship going either way. Also, I can pretty much ignore the hair by focusing on the actions and words of Amanda (or any character.) However, I know it means a lot to other SMK folks out there, so if I think of an explanation for episode order, I pass it along. Brunettes and Class Act were two of those. I haven't really set out to seek an order that "makes sense," but I do like to read other's opinions on it. If I think of anything to add to the discussion, I'll be glad to share. I'll have to do some re-watching and pondering over this issue, but it won't happen until Thanksgiving or so. My final project for class is looming, and now I have research and a 1000 word essay to deal with. (sigh)
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Post by iwsod on Nov 7, 2013 21:37:52 GMT
Hiya! Debilyn I don't think there is anyway to smooth out the relationship between Lee and Amanda completely! Good luck with your final project Debilyn- I can relate!!! 1000 words can be hard as you've got to be really concise! that isn't many words!! My view is: if a few episodes get moved and it makes better sense.. I'm up for it! Hi Morley! great questions.. I need to get into my work here so I'll come back later and answer as best I can - though I think my reasoning would be in the JWWM threads - if you get a chance to look at them- sometimes I think I blog what I think of episodes so I can remember what I think you know how it is with episode order, you have a fleeting reasoning for deciding something and then puff! it's gone! I'm open to putting ACA anywhere.. why do you want ACA much earlier Morley? Sorry to not answer your question now Morley - I'll look forward to responding later in the day byeee oh and thanks for the encouragement Jenbo!
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Post by iwsod on Nov 8, 2013 7:37:21 GMT
whooo hoooo okay I’m back! how many episodes in do you need to sort out for your fan fic Morley? LOL I’d love to elaborate on why I prefer ACA after 3FOE and CW after PP.. but I’m not sure I remember! or if that's what I really thought! LOL! well I’ll tell you what I’m thinking right now – but I’d prefer to read the blog or double check what was said on the blog.. ie. I’m really not sure how much help I am right now.. but okay.. I’ll give it a go and reserve the right to rethink everything! I'm now thinking ACA right before BAI isn’t very good, Amanda has her disappointment with training and then goes straight into BAI? Hmmm.. now I think about it.. I’ll say ACA, 3FOE, BAI – because then Amanda has her disappointment, and is then encouraged by Emily to continue on through her example, and then comes BAI – where she takes this continuing on to the next level. Okay so now I’m now thinking 7. ACA 8. 3FOE 9. BAI what do you think Morley? [or anyone ?] I was really not happy with CW being before BAI.. but.. I’m coming to the conclusion that is a part of Lee’s learning.. and maybe Amanda's confidence grows slowly after BAI.. it's a little bit of a backslide in the beginning of the episode.. I did wonder because Billy had to suggest Amanda at the beginning of CW as someone lee could call.. and after BAI you’d think he’d think of her first.. but.. the car wars script was written a few weeks after BAI. I am resigned to putting CW after BAI.. even though I don’t really like it! As debilyn says, it's one of those backward/forward things.. Has anyone watched them in this order? One night when I can’t think anymore I’ll put the episodes on in that order and see how it goes – if anyone else does too please let us know! Ah.. Why CW after PP? because I wanted CW further away form BAI!! and I thought in PP Lee is nice to Amanda again..I didn't want to go straight from BAI into CW.. that Lee could 'forget' so soon.. I liked the idea that he was nice in PP.. but then backslid a little in CW.. LOL.. I don't think there is anything concrete though- I can go with CW before.. and stick with the production order on this.. So I’ve got this now: 7. ACA 8. 3FOE 9. BAI 10. CW 11. PP how is that? I can deal with that I think.. But this ACA earlier is interesting.. I’d love to hear your ideas when you have time Morley. Were you wanting to split up the europe episodes with US episodes Morley? I do tend to see all the europe episodes early and together.. so ACA earlier is a new idea to me... the script for 3FOE is dated 12 sept, and for ACA 25 sept.. which means they were written in that order, but I prefer Amanda to get some encouragement from Emily after her disappointment with training and before tackling her work relationship with Lee head on in BAI! When you have a chance to check out the blog I’d be interested to hear what we’ve said previously about it.. Alas I don’t have time to look myself right now but come end of november..I can look- I’ll have more time! ohhh I hope some of what I’ve written makes a tiny bit of sense! byee!
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Post by morley on Nov 8, 2013 15:10:05 GMT
Ok, Lets see... I have read through a bit of the posts for 3FOE and I think most of the order discussion is about putting it before BAI, which makes good sense to me. I haven't been through as many if the posts for ACA yet so I am not sure of the discussion there. When I looked through it initially the only order comment I noticed was Debilyn's, but I will look again at some point. My reasoning for episode order tends to lean towards the relationship flow and character developement. I know the relationship isn't smooth but if there is a question about the order and there are no smoking guns like hair and chairs, the I will manipulate it to make things work better for my mind, and we all know that is overactive So for ACA I like it early because of Amanda's apparent ditsiness. I chalk it up to another growth period for her both professionally and with Lee and so when she gets pushed into new territory she gets a little flighty. I also put it right after LODG in which I think Lee and Amanda seemed to grow closer to each other. I contribute that increased closeness to Lee being vulnerable because Emily was threatened but also because Lee and Amanda were alone in a romantic city. Now they are back in DC out of their regular surroundings and dynamics of the office and I think that Lee especially is nervous about how he will handle things. I also like this one before AABH because of the way Amanda handles Lee's decision to make himself the target for the assassin in ACA. She doesn't handle it as coolly as she does on the bridge in AABH when he says, "It is what I do" and she responds with, "I know". That seems like progression to me. As I was looking over my notes from last year I noticed that I also saw a clear progression between AABH and BAI. Lord Bromfield's comment about Amanda being as much an agent as (Lee) kind of sets the stage for the tension in BAI. I also like to think of the uncomfortable awareness that they ad during the bridge scene was built upon with more uncomfortable awareness in BAI. And they worked through the one in BAI. I don't feel any need to keep the European episodes all lumped together in one group. I do think that any US episode before BAI can be plugged in wherever it might feasibly fit. In light of that and the way it seems to me like AABH flows well into BAI, I don't mind putting 3FOE between OMIT and AABH (just to throw another option in there). I am not committed to that but it was an idea that popped into my head. I wonder if the dates for the scripts of 3FOE and ACA had to do with when to work with Jean Stapleton? Maybe LODG and 3FOE needed to be written and filmed together? I haven't watched any of these episodes for a year now, so I can't exactly remember my thinking in detail, but I do remember some when I look at my notes. If any one gets a chance to watch episodes in varying order I would be interested in what you think. I wish I had time to go do that now. So there are my thoughts on those episodes. I'll keep working on reading the blog posts to see what everyone else said. I won't be needing to iron it out for a few more weeks. I am working on my stories for Waiting for Godorsky, then have Fearless Dotty and CBAH. I pretty much accomplish one a week and then when I am done with season 1 we are going to look over the flow of the whole season. plus during that time I need to throw a Thanksgiving dinner, perform a full length ballet, prepare for Christmas and do the gift shopping and host Christmas with an additional family of 5 staying for a week. My progress may slow down a bit, either that or I will maintain my pace of story writing to keep myself sane. I find it is great therapy to distress from RL. SMK is so good for that!
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Post by morley on Nov 8, 2013 19:10:06 GMT
I have now read a majority of the posts for ACA and it appears to me that most of the order comments are about whether or not the episode goes before or after BAI. I think we can all agree that it does go before. Just where before? That is the question still, for ACA and 3FOE.
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Post by jule on Nov 9, 2013 23:28:16 GMT
I'd really like to contribute but quite frankly I can't. I can't even follow all the abbreviations for the episodes LOL. I am useless at this sort of analysis Hah hah hah! I was just thinking the same thing and wondering if my mind is going casa de nada!
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Post by BJo on Nov 10, 2013 5:41:10 GMT
I'd really like to contribute but quite frankly I can't. I can't even follow all the abbreviations for the episodes LOL. I am useless at this sort of analysis Hah hah hah! I was just thinking the same thing and wondering if my mind is going casa de nada! DITTO!!!!!
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