|
Post by BJo on Jun 25, 2014 0:22:35 GMT
I think Lee was always out and about at nightclubs, restaurants etc etc because he found it easier not being alone with himself. Maybe that's why he appears so natural and content (and "energised") when he can be himself and enjoy his introversion in season 4? Learjet, why do you say Lee didn't find it easy to be by himself? That statement seems counter intuitive to me for an I. I don't think I've ever thought that about Lee. And I don't see him as in I in season 4 either. I think he is so head over heels in love with Amanda that she becomes his focus. I don't think I've ever really thought of Lee as internally focused. In the latter part of S4 he also focuses on Dotty and the boys. Gosh, I wish there was more of that in that season. I love S4. And on their honeymoon, they didn't go somewhere secluded by themselves, they went to visit a friend. I think that was Lee's idea; I think he wanted to share Amanda and their marriage with someone. That says E to me.
|
|
|
Post by learjet on Jun 25, 2014 1:19:16 GMT
Learjet, why do you say Lee didn't find it easy to be by himself? That statement seems counter intuitive to me for an I. I don't think I've ever thought that about Lee. And I don't see him as in I in season 4 either. I think he is so head over heels in love with Amanda that she becomes his focus. I don't think I've ever really thought of Lee as internally focused. In the latter part of S4 he also focuses on Dotty and the boys. Gosh, I wish there was more of that in that season. I love S4. And on their honeymoon, they didn't go somewhere secluded by themselves, they went to visit a friend. I think that was Lee's idea; I think he wanted to share Amanda and their marriage with someone. That says E to me. I'm going to try to explain my thoughts (but I've been working with significance tests all morning so I may not be coherent) About Lee finding it hard to be by himself: this is based on my husband's theory and he's used MB quite a lot at work. I think introverts tend to be a lot more introspective than extroverts - they tend to spend more time agonising about internal motivations, feelings, reasons (depending on their other "preferences" eg T vs F'ness). And Lee couldn't do this in early on as he had blocked those thoughts and feelings out as they were too hard to deal with (eg not processing his feelings about Eva, the whole Dorothy/wizard etc), and had built the proverbial walls around himself but also between his assumed persona and his real self himself. So he had to fill the gap by nightclubbing, dating a lot etc to avoid the introspection. A reason why I don't think we can judge him as an I or E re his focus on Amanda in S4 - I think that everyone, whether an introvert or extrovert focuses on the object of his or her love initially to exclusion of self or others. So I don't think we can use that to decide. I don't think we can judge him as externally focused by his interest and focus on Dotty and the boys as they are part of Amanda for him (as her family is so important to him) and maybe he sees them as part of his family (and beginning to be part of himself?). And my experience is that my family fits into a slightly different category for me than other people - I still need time entirely on my own, but time with my immediate family (esp my husband who is also an introvert) is less "taxing" to me than other people. Maybe because I can be quiet, read a book, get on with my own thing (eg listen to an audiobook on my ipod!) around them without feeling "tired". I also think that some introverts are like Siamese cats - and I think Lee may be one of them - A Siamese cat is entirely devoted to one owner and everyone else is peripheral and pretty unimportant. I think in Amanda, Lee has found his "owner" (this may sound v weird but it makes sense to me). And he was "showing off his owner" on honeymoon. Or maybe not? I also love the snippets of the more mature relationship between them that we get to see, including the bickering. I enjoy the whole eyeshadow etc argument in the Khrushchev List - it is just so normal and realistic for a newly married couple to argue about something which is seemingly petty but is actually about getting used to each other post-honeymoon and deciding what's important to get annoyed about (reminds me of my own experience!). And we so rarely see that sort of interaction on TV or in the movies.
|
|
|
Post by BJo on Jun 25, 2014 4:18:03 GMT
Fair enough - I can see what you are saying. I agree that both E's and I's focus on the object of their love initially and that may not be a good factor to decide upon. I also agree with the description of I's agonizing about internal motivations, feelings, and reasons (dep. upon their T/F). I guess I just don't Lee as an agonizer over internal thoughts or feelings. From my viewpoint I see Lee as not wanting to process feelings about Eva or Dorothy and his E enabled him to keep on ignoring it. I think without Amanda in his life he doesn't work through those as far as he did because he's not interested.
LOL on he Siamese cat thing - I understand the analogy, but I still find it telling that on their honeymoon Lee wanted to be able to visit and show off Amanda. They could have honeymooned first and then stopped off to see Barney after it was over, but no, they went to Barney first. Or at least that's what we're led to believe in the episode.
I also love the "normalcy" of their relationship in S4. I know it has some of the lowest points of the whole series, but for me their whole normal adult relationship before and after their wedding is what I waited three seasons to see and I just love watching it. Even though there's not a whole lot of it, it is my favorite to see.
|
|
|
Post by iwsod on Jun 25, 2014 5:05:04 GMT
Hi Everyone, before I get back to respond to previous comments.. Just thought I'd mention 'please understand me' is at my university library.. though it's out on loan so I've put a hold on it! It's the second one.. Also, I think Morley and BJo (?) mentioned how the scores can change depending on where you're at - the book I'm reading has said that this is a known part of the test - ie. they know this is possible and they recommend that people be retested over the years as people can change. The test is based on theory that type develops over the life span (guess this is where Jung differs from Freud) and they recommend retesting at different ages and life stages. So there you go! I just learned something! Theres heaps of info about how the different letters mix together and are inter related- I think its way too complicated for us to consider without doing the test on Lee or Amanda's behalf - plus they are not real lol so maybe they were not always written consistently.. We've set ourselves a task here just for fun though.. to explore the characters.. So regarding the fourth letter Judging (J) / Perceiving (P) I'll copy here what the myers briggs website says about them and from that you might be able to figure out which you see as fitting - without us having to look more into the gory details! The website says: Judging or Perceiving This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world. Everyone extraverts some of the time. This pair describes whether you extravert (act in the outer world) when you are making decisions or when you are taking in information. Some people interact with the outside world when they are taking in information. Whether they use the Sensing preference or the Intuitive preference, they are still interacting in the outside world. Other people do their interacting when they are making decisions. It doesn’t matter whether they are using a Thinking preference or a Feeling preference; they are still interacting in the outside world. Everyone takes in information some of the time. Everyone makes decisions some of the time. However, when it comes to dealing with the outer world, people who tend to focus on making decisions have a preference for Judging because they tend to like things decided. People who tend to focus on taking in information prefer Perceiving because they stay open to a final decision in order to get more information. Sometimes people feel they have both. That is true. The J or P preference only tells which preference the person extraverts. One person may feel very orderly/structured (J) on the inside, yet their outer life looks spontaneous and adaptable (P). Another person may feel very curious and open-ended (P) in their inner world, yet their outer life looks more structured or decided (J). Don’t confuse Judging and Perceiving with a person’s level of organization. Either preference can be organized. Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you? Judging (J) I use my decision-making (Judging) preference (whether it is Thinking or Feeling) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a planned or orderly way of life, like to have things settled and organized, feel more comfortable when decisions are made, and like to bring life under control as much as possible. Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, I may, inside, feel flexible and open to new information (which I am). Do not confuse Judging with judgmental, in its negative sense about people and events. They are not related. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I like to have things decided. ◦I appear to be task oriented. ◦ I like to make lists of things to do. ◦ I like to get my work done before playing. ◦ I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline. ◦Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information. Perceiving (P) I use my perceiving function (whether it is Sensing or Intuition) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a flexible and spontaneous way of life, and I like to understand and adapt to the world rather than organize it. Others see me staying open to new experiences and information. Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, inside I may feel very planful or decisive (which I am). Remember, in type language perceiving means “preferring to take in information.” It does not mean being “perceptive” in the sense of having quick and accurate perceptions about people and events. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens. ◦I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum. ◦I like to approach work as play or mix work and play. ◦I work in bursts of energy. ◦ I am stimulated by an approaching deadline. ◦ Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. Adapted from Looking at Type: The Fundamentals by Charles R. Martin (CAPT 1997) ------------------------------------------------------- Sooo what do you think? you know, I can see bits of Lee in both those ways he would prefer the outside world to see him.. gosh.. I guess no one is 100% of either option.. but the idea of Lee being big on decision making stands out for me.. he's decisive! Whatchathink everyone?
|
|
|
Post by iwsod on Jun 25, 2014 5:11:00 GMT
Hi BJo! Here's what the myers-briggs site says about Introversion (I)/ Extraversion (E) Where do you put your attention and get your energy? Do you like to spend time in the outer world of people and things (Extraversion), or in your inner world of ideas and images (Introversion)? Extraversion and Introversion as terms used by C. G. Jung explain different attitudes people use to direct their energy. These words have a meaning in psychology that is different from the way they are used in everyday language. Everyone spends some time extraverting and some time introverting. Don’t confuse Introversion with shyness or reclusiveness. They are not related. Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you? Extraversion (E) I like getting my energy from active involvement in events and having a lot of different activities. I’m excited when I’m around people and I like to energize other people. I like moving into action and making things happen. I generally feel at home in the world. I often understand a problem better when I can talk out loud about it and hear what others have to say. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I am seen as “outgoing” or as a “people person.” ◦I feel comfortable in groups and like working in them. ◦ I have a wide range of friends and know lots of people. ◦ I sometimes jump too quickly into an activity and don’t allow enough time to think it over. ◦ Before I start a project, I sometimes forget to stop and get clear on what I want to do and why. Introversion (I) I like getting my energy from dealing with the ideas, pictures, memories, and reactions that are inside my head, in my inner world. I often prefer doing things alone or with one or two people I feel comfortable with. I take time to reflect so that I have a clear idea of what I’ll be doing when I decide to act. Ideas are almost solid things for me. Sometimes I like the idea of something better than the real thing. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I am seen as “reflective” or “reserved.” ◦ I feel comfortable being alone and like things I can do on my own. ◦ I prefer to know just a few people well. ◦ I sometimes spend too much time reflecting and don’t move into action quickly enough. ◦I sometimes forget to check with the outside world to see if my ideas really fit the experience. Adapted from Looking at Type: The Fundamentals by Charles R. Martin (CAPT 1997) ----------- Lee has a few of those extravert qualities.. Hmm and some of the introvert qualities.. I wonder if we could say that in Lee's life stage at the start of the show, he was more extrovert, but in the life stage at the end of the show he is more introvert. would that work? LOL I'm trying to skim the season 4 references (not that you guys shouldn't talk about it you totally should! just thought I should explain I can't be reading them - for now! ) Byeeee
|
|
|
Post by learjet on Jun 25, 2014 8:36:23 GMT
So regarding the fourth letter Judging (J) / Perceiving (P) I'll copy here what the myers briggs website says about them and from that you might be able to figure out which you see as fitting - without us having to look more into the gory details! The website says: Judging or Perceiving This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world. Everyone extraverts some of the time. This pair describes whether you extravert (act in the outer world) when you are making decisions or when you are taking in information. Some people interact with the outside world when they are taking in information. Whether they use the Sensing preference or the Intuitive preference, they are still interacting in the outside world. Other people do their interacting when they are making decisions. It doesn’t matter whether they are using a Thinking preference or a Feeling preference; they are still interacting in the outside world. Everyone takes in information some of the time. Everyone makes decisions some of the time. However, when it comes to dealing with the outer world, people who tend to focus on making decisions have a preference for Judging because they tend to like things decided. People who tend to focus on taking in information prefer Perceiving because they stay open to a final decision in order to get more information. Sometimes people feel they have both. That is true. The J or P preference only tells which preference the person extraverts. One person may feel very orderly/structured (J) on the inside, yet their outer life looks spontaneous and adaptable (P). Another person may feel very curious and open-ended (P) in their inner world, yet their outer life looks more structured or decided (J). Don’t confuse Judging and Perceiving with a person’s level of organization. Either preference can be organized. Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you? Judging (J) I use my decision-making (Judging) preference (whether it is Thinking or Feeling) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a planned or orderly way of life, like to have things settled and organized, feel more comfortable when decisions are made, and like to bring life under control as much as possible. Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, I may, inside, feel flexible and open to new information (which I am). Do not confuse Judging with judgmental, in its negative sense about people and events. They are not related. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I like to have things decided. ◦I appear to be task oriented. ◦ I like to make lists of things to do. ◦ I like to get my work done before playing. ◦ I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline. ◦Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information. Perceiving (P) I use my perceiving function (whether it is Sensing or Intuition) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a flexible and spontaneous way of life, and I like to understand and adapt to the world rather than organize it. Others see me staying open to new experiences and information. Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, inside I may feel very planful or decisive (which I am). Remember, in type language perceiving means “preferring to take in information.” It does not mean being “perceptive” in the sense of having quick and accurate perceptions about people and events. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens. ◦I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum. ◦I like to approach work as play or mix work and play. ◦I work in bursts of energy. ◦ I am stimulated by an approaching deadline. ◦ Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. I actually think that by these descriptions, both Lee and Amanda are J's. And my feeling is that Lee is further along the continuum towards maximum J-ness than Amanda - Amanda is good at picking up and incorporating new information that she gathers (as we see more as season 3 progresses and esp season 4) which points to a bit of p'ness. As an F, she also gathers information on how her or other people's decision will affect other people (I go back to my example in "J Edgars ghost" where Lee makes a snap decision to take the librarian in for a grilling (T), while Amanda is concerned about her broken heart and want to act according to how questioning would affect her.
|
|
|
Post by learjet on Jun 25, 2014 8:51:41 GMT
H Extraversion (E) I like getting my energy from active involvement in events and having a lot of different activities. I’m excited when I’m around people and I like to energize other people. I like moving into action and making things happen. I generally feel at home in the world. I often understand a problem better when I can talk out loud about it and hear what others have to say. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I am seen as “outgoing” or as a “people person.” ◦I feel comfortable in groups and like working in them. ◦ I have a wide range of friends and know lots of people. ◦ I sometimes jump too quickly into an activity and don’t allow enough time to think it over. ◦ Before I start a project, I sometimes forget to stop and get clear on what I want to do and why. Introversion (I) I like getting my energy from dealing with the ideas, pictures, memories, and reactions that are inside my head, in my inner world. I often prefer doing things alone or with one or two people I feel comfortable with. I take time to reflect so that I have a clear idea of what I’ll be doing when I decide to act. Ideas are almost solid things for me. Sometimes I like the idea of something better than the real thing. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I am seen as “reflective” or “reserved.” ◦ I feel comfortable being alone and like things I can do on my own. ◦ I prefer to know just a few people well. ◦ I sometimes spend too much time reflecting and don’t move into action quickly enough. ◦I sometimes forget to check with the outside world to see if my ideas really fit the experience. I must admit, I find this list of statements doesn't always apply - I think the descriptions of I and E you quote encompass the concepts better. Actually, I find the most helpful questions for an I vs E: You've had a really terrible day - do you a) Go out with friends for an evening out (E) or b) watch TV or read a book (I), and: You're at a party. At 10pm do you a) think that party's just begun, I want to stay and enjoy myself (E) or b) I had a good time but I have had enough and want to go home (The Learjet E/I test, with acknowledgements to MB). Sadly, we can't ask Amanda and Lee these questions. But I think based on the descriptions you posted Iwsod, Amanda is def and I. Lee - not so sure. But I still think he's an introvert based on the other information we got. I see him as a total ISTJ package (yes I've been persuaded out of that P). I think as an overall type, ISTJ are extremely loyal, hard working, prepared to do their duty (no matter how difficult it is and if it involves personal suffering), reliable and when they love, they love deeply. And this sums up Lee well. Iwsod, have you done the test yourself yet?
|
|
|
Post by morley on Jun 25, 2014 11:27:21 GMT
Hey, Iwsod, can you put up the criteria for the other two traits. I really like these quotes, I find them very helpful. Thanks for sharing them
|
|
|
Post by BJo on Jun 25, 2014 15:26:47 GMT
I also found the forth letter hard to pick for both of them. And that's when I resorted to overall descriptions of the combinations of the 4 letters, rather than choose J or P based on the definitions of J or P (if that makes any sense). One bit of potential evidence is the Damn Duck Lee with his obsessive list-making and being very particular about this. And both Amanda and Billy comment that this is very out of character.I think Js tends to make lists and keep to them (and love their lists) while Ps may make lists but aren't so hooked into 'ticking them off". His behaviour in the Damned Duck episode is more characteristic of an ISTJ, and suggests to me that he is more of a natural ISTP usually. (As an ISTJ, I admit to be a bit stuck on order and procedures - can be very rigid if I'm not very careful about it) I'm also open to Amanda being an I - maybe her huge involvement in the PTA, mothers' den etc etc was related to fill the gap and sadness left by Joe's rejection (?) of their marriage and need for the stimulation and meaning that working at the Agency provides. She certainly has a big circle of aquaintances, but not necessarily "friends" (her mum seems to fill the role of friend) which would also point to introversion. I'm also interested in the Five Love Languages (Gary Chapman) and wonder if anyone has thoughts on Amanda and Lee's love languages? I have some thoughts on these. I just finished watching the Damned Duck episode and wanted to add a couple of thoughts. in that episode Lee's brain is re-programmed by Glazer. As a result, he makes lists and neat, prompt, and orderly. All J-ish characteristics. Amanda clearly recognnizes this as foreign behavior by Lee which is what makes her believe something is up. So I think we are meant to believe that Lee is not like this in his life - he is more spontaneous, less orderly, settled and willing to go with the flow - all P-ish tendencies. I think the bit about the specific comb is funny and even can apply. It seems more J behavior that Lee is particular about a specific comb, but I think what is P-like is that he keeps it under the magazines on the coffee table! It is not in it's proper place - in the bathroom where Amanda would expect it to be! It is there on the coffee table so that Lee can comb his hair while his lady friends are in the bathroom...very opportunisitic! Is that P or J? I'm thinking P, but perhaps I'm wrong. It makes me laugh though to think about it I also think that Amanda's involvement in the PTA is not indiciative of E/I. I was very involved in my kids' school PTA and my church community. I hated the meetings, and signed up for volunteer activities where I was able to volunteer with the few women I was friends with. I also chaired one committee year after year, but was basically a committee of one and delegated. Actually, I think the fact that she is so involved in the PTA's and her community (MFSE) and lots of people know her (middle school principal Alma Dennis in TWWHome) but she never does anything with them or talks to them on the show makes me think that she is more I than E. Like you said learjet, Dotty seems to fill that role just fine. That's it for now, gotta run!
|
|
|
Post by iwsod on Jun 26, 2014 0:20:33 GMT
Hey, Iwsod, can you put up the criteria for the other two traits. I really like these quotes, I find them very helpful. Thanks for sharing them Sure! No problem! (I'll be back later today to respond to comments) The second pair of psychological preferences is Sensing and Intuition. Do you pay more attention to information that comes in through your five senses (Sensing), or do you pay more attention to the patterns and possibilities that you see in the information you receive (Intuition)? Everyone spends some time Sensing and some time using Intuition. Don’t confuse Sensing with sensual. They aren’t related. Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you? Sensing (S) Paying attention to physical reality, what I see, hear, touch, taste, and smell. I’m concerned with what is actual, present, current, and real. I notice facts and I remember details that are important to me. I like to see the practical use of things and learn best when I see how to use what I’m learning. Experience speaks to me louder than words. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I remember events as snapshots of what actually happened. ◦I solve problems by working through facts until I understand the problem. ◦I am pragmatic and look to the “bottom line.” ◦I start with facts and then form a big picture. ◦I trust experience first and trust words and symbols less. ◦Sometimes I pay so much attention to facts, either present or past, that I miss new possibilities. Intuition (N) Paying the most attention to impressions or the meaning and patterns of the information I get. I would rather learn by thinking a problem through than by hands-on experience. I’m interested in new things and what might be possible, so that I think more about the future than the past. I like to work with symbols or abstract theories, even if I don’t know how I will use them. I remember events more as an impression of what it was like than as actual facts or details of what happened. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I remember events by what I read “between the lines” about their meaning. ◦I solve problems by leaping between different ideas and possibilities. ◦I am interested in doing things that are new and different. ◦I like to see the big picture, then to find out the facts. ◦I trust impressions, symbols, and metaphors more than what I actually experienced ◦Sometimes I think so much about new possibilities that I never look at how to make them a reality. Adapted from Looking at Type: The Fundamentals by Charles R. Martin (CAPT 1997) -------------------------------------------------- This third preference pair describes how you like to make decisions. Do you like to put more weight on objective principles and impersonal facts (Thinking) or do you put more weight on personal concerns and the people involved (Feeling)? Don’t confuse Feeling with emotion. Everyone has emotions about the decisions they make. Also do not confuse Thinking with intelligence. Everyone uses Thinking for some decisions and Feeling for others. In fact, a person can make a decision using his or her preference, then test the decision by using the other preference to see what might not have been taken into account. Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you? Thinking (T) When I make a decision, I like to find the basic truth or principle to be applied, regardless of the specific situation involved. I like to analyze pros and cons, and then be consistent and logical in deciding. I try to be impersonal, so I won’t let my personal wishes--or other people’s wishes--influence me. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I enjoy technical and scientific fields where logic is important. ◦I notice inconsistencies. ◦I look for logical explanations or solutions to most everything. ◦I make decisions with my head and want to be fair. ◦I believe telling the truth is more important than being tactful. ◦Sometimes I miss or don’t value the “people” part of a situation. ◦I can be seen as too task-oriented, uncaring, or indifferent. Feeling (F) I believe I can make the best decisions by weighing what people care about and the points-of-view of persons involved in a situation. I am concerned with values and what is the best for the people involved. I like to do whatever will establish or maintain harmony. In my relationships, I appear caring, warm, and tactful. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦I have a people or communications orientation. ◦ I am concerned with harmony and nervous when it is missing. ◦ I look for what is important to others and express concern for others. ◦ I make decisions with my heart and want to be compassionate. ◦ I believe being tactful is more important than telling the “cold” truth. ◦ Sometimes I miss seeing or communicating the “hard truth” of situations. ◦I am sometimes experienced by others as too idealistic, mushy, or indirect. Adapted from Looking at Type: The Fundamentals by Charles R. Martin (CAPT 1997) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ source: www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/
|
|
|
Post by iwsod on Jun 26, 2014 2:20:53 GMT
Hi All! I finally have a moment to collect what's been said here into something coherent for me! Thanks Learjet and Morley, glad you found the articles helpful - they are the descriptions used on the myers briggs website for the public- and so not in technical language.. which is I think just what we need As I just said on the love languages thread- I'll just qualify my comments here by saying I am a bit fuzzy on the events of seasons 3 and 4 - having not blogged about them yet. so maybe my ideas are influenced by that. Not sure.. Anyway, I'll make a go of it though for fun! Season 4 is your favourite BJo? I think that is wonderful!!!! I'll really look forward to walking through that season with you!! BJo it sounds like you are categorising J/P based on whether someone is organised. you'll see in the MB description it notes the J/P preference is not to be confused with whether someone is organised or not (seems that must be a regular misinterpretation) Interesting that you are also questioning the Introvert/Extrovert dichotomy - as it appears the J/P dichotomy is about our preference for how we extrovert when we do.. what we prefer to present to the world. so J/P and I/E seem to be similar.. I/E is about how you prefer your interior world to be, J/P is about how you prefer your exterior world to be. I'd be really interested to hear what you make of the list of questions the MB website listed to give you an idea of the preferences. you haven't referred to them so maybe you haven't read it yet? I would agree that Amanda's involvement in the PTA is not indicative of E/I BJo..
|
|
|
Post by iwsod on Jun 26, 2014 2:40:38 GMT
So regarding the fourth letter Judging (J) / Perceiving (P) I'll copy here what the myers briggs website says about them and from that you might be able to figure out which you see as fitting - without us having to look more into the gory details! The website says: Judging or Perceiving This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world. Everyone extraverts some of the time. This pair describes whether you extravert (act in the outer world) when you are making decisions or when you are taking in information. Some people interact with the outside world when they are taking in information. Whether they use the Sensing preference or the Intuitive preference, they are still interacting in the outside world. Other people do their interacting when they are making decisions. It doesn’t matter whether they are using a Thinking preference or a Feeling preference; they are still interacting in the outside world. Everyone takes in information some of the time. Everyone makes decisions some of the time. However, when it comes to dealing with the outer world, people who tend to focus on making decisions have a preference for Judging because they tend to like things decided. People who tend to focus on taking in information prefer Perceiving because they stay open to a final decision in order to get more information. Sometimes people feel they have both. That is true. The J or P preference only tells which preference the person extraverts. One person may feel very orderly/structured (J) on the inside, yet their outer life looks spontaneous and adaptable (P). Another person may feel very curious and open-ended (P) in their inner world, yet their outer life looks more structured or decided (J). Don’t confuse Judging and Perceiving with a person’s level of organization. Either preference can be organized. Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you? Judging (J) I use my decision-making (Judging) preference (whether it is Thinking or Feeling) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a planned or orderly way of life, like to have things settled and organized, feel more comfortable when decisions are made, and like to bring life under control as much as possible. Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, I may, inside, feel flexible and open to new information (which I am). Do not confuse Judging with judgmental, in its negative sense about people and events. They are not related. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I like to have things decided. ◦I appear to be task oriented. ◦ I like to make lists of things to do. ◦ I like to get my work done before playing. ◦ I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline. ◦Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information. Perceiving (P) I use my perceiving function (whether it is Sensing or Intuition) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a flexible and spontaneous way of life, and I like to understand and adapt to the world rather than organize it. Others see me staying open to new experiences and information. Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, inside I may feel very planful or decisive (which I am). Remember, in type language perceiving means “preferring to take in information.” It does not mean being “perceptive” in the sense of having quick and accurate perceptions about people and events. The following statements generally apply to me: ◦ I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens. ◦I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum. ◦I like to approach work as play or mix work and play. ◦I work in bursts of energy. ◦ I am stimulated by an approaching deadline. ◦ Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. I actually think that by these descriptions, both Lee and Amanda are J's. And my feeling is that Lee is further along the continuum towards maximum J-ness than Amanda - Amanda is good at picking up and incorporating new information that she gathers (as we see more as season 3 progresses and esp season 4) which points to a bit of p'ness. As an F, she also gathers information on how her or other people's decision will affect other people (I go back to my example in "J Edgars ghost" where Lee makes a snap decision to take the librarian in for a grilling (T), while Amanda is concerned about her broken heart and want to act according to how questioning would affect her. which of theP and J statements do you think apply to Lee? and.. which of the P and J statements do you think apply to Amanda? I'm fuzzy on seasons 3 and 4.. so would be curious to hear what you would select - this goes for everyone by the way not just learjet.. I'll have a go.. but no idea if I'm right- which of the following statements would you think Lee would say generally apply to him: J statements ◦ I like to have things decided. [definitely sounds like Lee] ◦I appear to be task oriented. [definitely sounds like Lee] ◦ I like to make lists of things to do. [Not sure of this one - do we see Lee make a list any other time than in the damn duck ep? Does he make the list in Kruschev list before it is suggested to him? I don't remember.. oh and doesn't he keep a list on his contact lenses? tee hee..] ◦ I like to get my work done before playing. [Whoooo not sure - then again, he is very work focused and puts his work ahead of his social life doesn't he?] ◦ I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline. [What do you think? I can only think of deadlines as being umm well a 'dead' line so it's kinda important to solve it earlier rather than wait for the deadline haaa] ◦Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information. [oh boy.. sometimes I think Lee does this. but.. sometimes he doesn't! thoughts?] P statements ◦ I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens. [yeah.. I this sounds like Lee no?] ◦I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum. [keep plans toa minimum? doesn't sound like Lee to me..] ◦I like to approach work as play or mix work and play. [whoooo he does mix work and play at times doesn't he.. but I'd say work is always the priority?] ◦I work in bursts of energy. [this implies downtime doesn't it?? I think Lee works in bursts of energy in response to the demands of work] ◦ I am stimulated by an approaching deadline. [oh is he ever! but they usually Lee's deadlines are impending world war 3 or something.. sooo not sure?!] ◦ Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. There are more clearly Lee J statements.. so I'd probably still go with J for Lee.. okay Amanda! which of the following statements would you think Amanda think generally apply to her: J statements: ◦ I like to have things decided. [hmm.. not so much..] ◦I appear to be task oriented. [Hmm..she is but not in a totally focused way] ◦ I like to make lists of things to do. ◦ I like to get my work done before playing. [Hmm what do you all think? ◦ I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline. ◦Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information. [Nooo not Amanda I think..] P statements: ◦ I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens. [yeah I'd say this is Amanda] ◦I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum. [hmm letting the boys build the supply line to wherever in ALSALS was pretty loose and casual no?] ◦I like to approach work as play or mix work and play. [I'm not sure why but I can see Amanda doing this.] ◦I work in bursts of energy. [she is a burst of energy that never stops ] ◦ I am stimulated by an approaching deadline. [yeah she is energised by purpose..] ◦ Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. [I'd say Amanda is more like this than Lee early on - she goes off on tangents alot] I'm not sure about Amanda.. maybe I'd guess that early Amanda was more P and later Amanda moves closer to J ? Okay.. I gotta have a break from thinking Myers-Briggs! LOL! byeee
|
|
|
Post by BJo on Jun 26, 2014 3:07:47 GMT
Okay – there’s so much good stuff here!! Where to begin?
First off, thanks iwsod for putting all that stuff up there about each set of traits. I’ve not read the Myer’s stuff, I’ve only read the Keirsey/Bates stuff. But I know Keirsey was a student of hers or a protegee, so his stuff is the next round of her work.
Also, there is a Please Understand Me II book. It is thicker than Please Understand Me. It goes into a lot of applications – i.e. at work, as a parent, as a spouse, stuff like that. I’ve read most of it, but I only read the parts that applied to me and my husband’s types.
Yep, I love S4, iwsod! I think it is my favorite! As things stand right now, S3 is at the bottom of my list. That may be why I’m having a hard time getting into Wizard. All that symbolism and stuff is not my cup of tea!
Iwsod, I must not have written my thoughts out well. I don’t categorize J/P based on someone being organized. Was it that I used the word orderly? My mom (J) was and my husband (P) is very organized and neat, so I know those traits by themselves do not tell J/P tendencies. I think I was thinking of the overall picture those words painted to me in the Damned Duck ep.
Iwsod, you wrote – “I'd be really interested to hear what you make of the list of questions the MB website listed to give you an idea of the preferences. you haven't referred to them so maybe you haven't read it yet? “ Which MB questions are you referring to? I haven’t seen anything here that you’ve shared from the MB website that contradicts my understanding of the preferences. It all sounds consistent with what I’ve already been taught and learned on my own by reading the Keirsey books and doing sorters with groups.
I had not heard of the J/P being about how you prefer your exterior to be and the I/E about your interior preference. I wonder if Keirsey presented that in a different way in his research. But all the statements you listed for all the pairs is all the same stuff, so I have a feeling it’s not presented explicitly in Keirsey’s books. Or perhaps I just don’t remember it – which is a real possibility.
|
|
|
Post by BJo on Jun 26, 2014 3:36:34 GMT
Lee P statements: I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens. – YES!! ◦I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum. YES!! I think Lee is spontaneous. Scarecrow is less so, but that it because of work IMO. ◦I like to approach work as play or mix work and play. YES!! Mix work and play – unless it involves a life/death situation - then he doesn’t play. ◦I work in bursts of energy. Yeah, but this could just be an artifact of the job. Not sure about this one. ◦ I am stimulated by an approaching deadline. YES!! S4 – delay of marriage is a good example. ◦ Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. YES! I can’t think of an example of this, but I think Amanda helps him to do this, so I think without her he misses them. J statements: I like to have things decided. I see this as a Scarecrow trait, not Lee. ◦I appear to be task oriented. I don’t see this - ◦ I like to make lists of things to do. When does he ever do this? In Damned Duck he does it, but he’s been brainwashed into it. Against his will. ◦ I like to get my work done before playing. NO!! Not Lee. I think he mixes them very well. ◦ I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline. Nope – I don’t see him planning. I think he knows how to do the job and he does it based on his experience. ◦Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information. I think this may be a Scarecrow trait – again, Amanda fills this void for me. Amanda – P statements: ◦ I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens. NO! I think Amanda CAN stay open and respond to whatever happens – she can actually do this well. Lee puts her in this position a ton of time. But, I don’t’ think she likes it. At all. She can do it, but doesn’t prefer it. ◦I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum. I think this partly describes Amanda – I don’t think she is a huge planner, but I do think she is more of a planner than a non-planner. ◦I like to approach work as play or mix work and play. Nope – I think Amanda is very serious about her work and doesn’t view it as play. ◦I work in bursts of energy. Nah – Amanda is always “on” to me. No bursts. ◦ I am stimulated by an approaching deadline. Who isn’t? But Amanda is also stimulated to get things going and get them done so she doesn’t have to rush to meet the deadline IMO. ◦ Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. I don’t think so. Amanda strikes me as being a decisive person. J statements: ◦ I like to have things decided. Yes! I think this is her preference. ◦I appear to be task oriented. Yes! I think she is focused on the task and not the process. I think she wants to get the task done and doesn’t necessarily want to enjoy the process. ◦ I like to make lists of things to do. Not sure. We don’t see her doing this do we? Although she does keep lists in her job as Lee’s partner. We see that in Pharaoh’s engineer, I think. ◦ I like to get my work done before playing. Yes! ◦ I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline. Yes – I think so. ◦Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information. I don’t think this describes Amanda fully. She seems very open and perceptive. Well, if you read all that, you'd see why I pick P for Lee and J for Amanda and Scarecrow. The tag in Billy's Lost Weekend is a good one to analyze for temperament of these two. I've thought about it alot on my walks and runs. I need to think on it some more, but that is a good scene to watch - unless you're iwsod. I'll write my thoughts about it here sometime.
|
|
|
Post by learjet on Jun 26, 2014 4:38:36 GMT
I just finished watching the Damned Duck episode and wanted to add a couple of thoughts. in that episode Lee's brain is re-programmed by Glazer. As a result, he makes lists and neat, prompt, and orderly. All J-ish characteristics. Amanda clearly recognnizes this as foreign behavior by Lee which is what makes her believe something is up. So I think we are meant to believe that Lee is not like this in his life - he is more spontaneous, less orderly, settled and willing to go with the flow - all P-ish tendencies. I think the bit about the specific comb is funny and even can apply. It seems more J behavior that Lee is particular about a specific comb, but I think what is P-like is that he keeps it under the magazines on the coffee table! It is not in it's proper place - in the bathroom where Amanda would expect it to be! It is there on the coffee table so that Lee can comb his hair while his lady friends are in the bathroom...very opportunisitic! Is that P or J? I'm thinking P, but perhaps I'm wrong. It makes me laugh though to think about it I also think that Amanda's involvement in the PTA is not indiciative of E/I. I was very involved in my kids' school PTA and my church community. I hated the meetings, and signed up for volunteer activities where I was able to volunteer with the few women I was friends with. I also chaired one committee year after year, but was basically a committee of one and delegated. Actually, I think the fact that she is so involved in the PTA's and her community (MFSE) and lots of people know her (middle school principal Alma Dennis in TWWHome) but she never does anything with them or talks to them on the show makes me think that she is more I than E. Like you said learjet, Dotty seems to fill that role just fine. That's it for now, gotta run! I see your point about the PTA, BJo. I think she is a decent, community-minded person person, wanted to be a good mum by involving herself in activities to do with her boys etc. I think your involvement may be partly related to being an ISTJ - feeling that you should contribute, that is your duty to help out and that they need people like you that they can rely on (since I don't know you, I might be totally wrong here, so I apologise if I'M off!). I tend to commit to helping out because I think someone needs to do it and then wish I hadn't because I would rather stay at home with a book or TV when the time comes to go (but I always go anyway).
|
|