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Post by morley on Jul 22, 2015 3:37:31 GMT
Amy asked this question in another thread a few days ago. And Jestress agreed that she wouldn't mind discussing this, in detail. I bet a few of us wouldn't mind jumping in as well. I thought it might be a good idea to give this topic it's own space. Can we talk about it without getting ahead of where we are on JWWM up to this point (OBDOBD)?
I for one think that Lee has completely fallen by this point and that Amanda is teetering on the edge and has basically lost her ability to keep herself from falling (even though she may not totally be ready to admit it, just for safety sake). I can explain later, but I will do a better job after a good night's sleep. But I thought that I might as well get this ball rolling.
Have fun!
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Post by jestress on Jul 22, 2015 5:23:32 GMT
I think Lee was attracted to Amanda even in the first season, although he didn't want to admit it. Part of the reason I think he found the idea so peculiar is because he is immersed in the world of spies and intrigue, and in the beginning, Amanda seemed like an unlikely person to remain involved in that world. Over the course of the series, when he sees that Amanda has adapted to the work and the life and identifies with the same ideals he does, the idea doesn't strike him as being that strange. I think early season 3 is when Lee really begins to admit to himself that he has feelings for Amanda. I'm not sure, but I have a theory that in a way, his relationship with Leslie might have been a test to see if he really was really in love with Amanda or if he could move on with another woman he was attracted to, and he quickly discovered that it was really Amanda he wanted. We're not at the end of the third season yet, but I think for much of the third season, Lee is trying to figure out what Amanda's feelings are and get a little closer to her.
I always find it harder to pin down what Amanda was feeling when. I think that she tends to conceal her feelings more than Lee. Having been through a divorce, she would naturally be more cautious about relationships, I guess. However, I think she had some attraction to Lee even in the beginning. It might have been more an attraction to his spy image at first, but I don't think it was long before she became interested in Lee the person. Even in the first couple episodes, she was asking him personal questions about himself, wanting to get to know him better. She always wanted to be Lee's friend, but she might have been attracted to him off and on during the second season. She probably didn't let herself carry that too far because she doubted that he was interested in her or that a relationship between them actually had a chance of working. I think that all changed in the third season, especially when they almost kissed each other in "Utopia Now." I think her little comment at the end, when they were talking about the almost kiss shows that she had made up her mind about how she felt about Lee and that she was willing to admit it because she had gotten the sense that he felt the same way. I also think that they had some other casual dates between then and the end of the third season while they both were trying to determine each other's feelings and decide how far they wanted to take their relationship.
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Post by learjet on Jul 22, 2015 9:17:29 GMT
The Amanda issue is rather complicated so I'm going to sleep on it (while Morley is awake  ) but here are my thoughts on Lee: I'm not sure about season 1 Lee - he certainly has contradictory feelings towards Amanda. I'm not convinced that these are in any way romantic (although there is that moment in Filming Raul to consider... and a few jealous moments which hint at some attraction. There are certainly some times in Season 2 where Lee has realisations about Amanda (as being more important to him than "just" a very good friend) - the kiss in Ship of Spies - when she leaves the Agency in Murder Between Friends - Burnout; the moment of revelation at the cafe But it's in season 3 where there are pivotal moments where we can see his feelings moving forward - the threeway scene with Leslie, and his use of Amanda's name in Over The Limit - the bedroom scene (with the much debated nightgown) with the moment of electricity in A Lovely Little Affair - the black books scene on the street in Wizar - the swamp scene in UN But IMO, it's the gym scene pre-tag in The Wrong Way Home where Lee consciously realises exactly how much he feels for Amanda; that he is in love with her. There is a sense of his love being unconditional in that moment (if Joe would make her happy, he'd let her go.) |
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Post by BJo on Jul 23, 2015 1:00:10 GMT
Hmmm, okay - here are my top of mind thoughts.
First Lee - because I think he is the more obvious of the two. I think he is well and truly on his way to being totally and irreversibly in love with Amanda, but I don't think the last nail has been pounded in yet. In my mind there is a definite moment when that becomes glaringly obvious to Lee, but it is ahead of OBDOBD so I won't say anymore. I'd say Lee is about 95% there by now.
As for Amanda, I think she is fighting a losing battle and she may be realizing it. I think she wants Lee to be the man she needs him to be because she is having a hard time not falling for him. But I think she is very self-disciplined and has been able to guard her heart from falling too far just yet. I think Amanda's not 100% fully sure for a while yet, but it is going to get very hard to resist it very soon.
And it occurs to me and my linear, logical brain that I may not be separating out "love" from when Lee or Amanda fully believes they are capable of being what they need to be to make things work till death do them part. Does that make sense?
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Post by learjet on Jul 23, 2015 10:36:15 GMT
And it occurs to me and my linear, logical brain that I may not be separating out "love" from when Lee or Amanda fully believes they are capable of being what they need to be to make things work till death do them part. Does that make sense? Are you differentiating between "love" and having the kind of relationship that can last last a lifetime (the will/decision to stick at it for the long-haul?) |
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Post by BJo on Jul 23, 2015 16:01:04 GMT
And it occurs to me and my linear, logical brain that I may not be separating out "love" from when Lee or Amanda fully believes they are capable of being what they need to be to make things work till death do them part. Does that make sense? Are you differentiating between "love" and having the kind of relationship that can last last a lifetime (the will/decision to stick at it for the long-haul?) Yes - but I'm saying I'm NOT differentiating it. Meaning for me, the "when they fall in love" part is not separated from the will/decision to stick at it for the long haul. So I think that is why I think Lee is not 100% there yet and why it takes Amanda much, much longer. I realize that I may be alone or in a very small minority with that thinking - and I'm completely okay with it Every the practical girl, what use is falling in love if you're not going to do anything with it? |
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Post by learjet on Jul 25, 2015 3:56:11 GMT
Yes - but I'm saying I'm NOT differentiating it. Meaning for me, the "when they fall in love" part is not separated from the will/decision to stick at it for the long haul. So I think that is why I think Lee is not 100% there yet and why it takes Amanda much, much longer. I realize that I may be alone or in a very small minority with that thinking - and I'm completely okay with it Every the practical girl, what use is falling in love if you're not going to do anything with it? This make a lot of sense. When you've been in a marriage that hasn't worked out and you're a thoughtful person (which I think Amanda is when she's not rambling) plus you've got kids to consider, it makes sense that you'd be cautious about the long-term prospects. Lee does not look good on paper! (although very good on film) Also, I think the decisions you make regarding long-term romantic prospects are very different in your mid-30s and beyond, than they are in your 20s (when you are blissfully ignorant of the implications...) |
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Post by morley on Jul 25, 2015 21:36:34 GMT
And if Amanda thought that the implications of being married to Joe were not workable, how is can she even consider Lee? I think there are a lot things that she nneds to consider, including how she views herself and her life's work.
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) but here are my thoughts on Lee:
