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Post by learjet on Jun 21, 2014 6:00:07 GMT
My understanding is that it is about preferences - so you may naturallly prefer to be an introvert (maybe even sub-consciouslY) but behave or choose to behave in a more extraverted fashion. IN my past career, I was a physio so I spent 8 hours a day full one with people (one on one mainly) and I loved the people interaction, esp getting to know new and different people from all walks of life. At a certain point I resigned and started doing temp jobs when I got pregnant and I did less hours. And I was amazed at how much better I felt, having more time alone (I was studying part-time too). I think my true introverted self meant that I felt more content and together when I had more "space", although I still love people. So maybe the answers can vary depending on how you feel at the time of taking the test, but I don't think your preferences change. My take on Lee and the I/E thing is that he didn't know himself very well early on . He blocked his true self, not only from others, but also from himself. When he started getting to know himself better (through opening up to Amanda and resolving past issues eg Eva (icky) and Dorothy), he was able to be himelf to himself too (if that makes any sense??) I believe that they say you should try to develop the opposing characteristic to try to become more balanced (eg I need to practice being a P sometimes as I am an extreme J). and I think that one way of seeing how both of them grow is that they help each other learn that balance and "practice" their opposite characteristics safely. I know my husband and I have been able to encourage each other in that way (overtly!)
Anyway, I think Amanda is clearly an F as she makes decisions and judgements based on how these decisions will affect others while Lee (a T) bases his purely on logic. the example that springs to mind is J Edgars Ghost, when the poor librarian is reeling under the shock of find out that that awful man (?Nicky) has been using her to get those files, Lee wants to pull her in for questioning and Amanda says that she needs time and space as her heart has been broken. Personally I think F/T are the most clearly displayed aspects for both of them across the series.
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Post by iwsod on Jun 22, 2014 2:43:37 GMT
I'll outline third and fourth letters also.. so we can come back to this. Third Letter is either T (Thinking) or F (Feeling) It asks: how do you prefer to make decisions?? Thinking ( decisions are impersonal, logical. value justice fairness, enjoy identifying flaws in argument, reasonable, level-headed) Feeling (decisions are based on person values and how actions affect others, value harmony and forgiveness, like pleasing others and seeing the best in people, warm, empathic) The fourth letter could be J (Judging) or P (perceiving) It asks: how do you prefer to live your outer life? Judging (like to have a definite answer, rules should be respected, likes detailed step by step instructions, makes plans and wants to know expected outcomes) Perceiving (prefer open options, sees rules as flexible, likes to improvise and make things up as they go, spontaneous, enjoy surprises and new situations) Soooooo any thoughts? I think I'll head off now and come back to this later today! byeeeee it's been wonderful having a chat of sorts with you all today! byeeee Ahhhh I finally get back to this thread! Okay.. so far I'm thinking: Amanda IN Lee: IS for the third letter.. I'll go with Amanda: F -feeling Lee: T- thinking! What do you guys think? for the fourth letter... I think this one is tougher!! Hmm.. the characters are capable of both.. but which do they typically prefer? given Lee says he is a rule breaker and Amanda is a rule follower, you'd think this is an easy one. but I'm not sure.. I actually think Lee likes to follow rules - the thing is they are HIS rules he likes to follow He has very solid beliefs about what is okay and what's not. Others would interpret this as being a rule breaker. but- he goes to great lengths to follow his own rules.. Amanda? What she tells the colonel about raising kids comes to mind. The Colonel says he wishes they came with a manual - but Amanda prefers to make things up as she goes along - it's more fun! Hmm.. cant wait to hear what you guys make of this! I'll go with Amanda: P-Perceiving Lee: J-Judging Soooo- for Amanda I go with: INFP and for Lee: ISTJ
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Post by iwsod on Jun 22, 2014 3:23:07 GMT
Ok, I have a question. I was thinking about the difference between BJo's MB results for Lee and mine. Maybe this is a qualitative vs quantitative question and maybe one of you wonderful psyche people can answer it. What would be the difference between a defense mechanism and a personality trait and how would it show on a MB test at different stages of a person's healing process? Hey Morley.. great questions! What do you think? I'll share my ideas.. but not sure I have a definite answer. [pretty typical of psychology!] Personality traits are seen as traits which are more or less constant over time (though there are psychologists who challenge the idea that personalities will always remain constant) Defense mechanisms are ways of coping - so they are not necessarily constant and may vary depending on the situation. I haven't done much study on how the two interact, but I would imagine your personality could mean you are more prone to utilising a particular defense mechanism. Anyone read up on this? I know psychoanalysis theorises personality is laid down as you progress through the developmental stages.. and personality tends to be formed in early childhood. the Myers Briggs is designed to get at the underlying personality (taking into consideration the day to day variation of people's answers) - it aims to measure a person's constant traits which can vary slightly over time but are theorised to more or less remain constant. Ie. there'll be some variation over the years depending on current life circumstances, but your basic personality should be more or less able to be measured.. With Lee... I'd say he was always an introvert his personality didn't change - but he would have appeared more extrovert to start with.. I don't see his defense mechanisms as changing his personality - not in a way that is regular and ongoing - but occasionally? on a case by case basis? they could lead Lee to act out of sync with his usual behaviour.. hope that helps? Very interesting!
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Post by iwsod on Jun 22, 2014 3:45:23 GMT
Hey learjet I think you are right.. the F/T contrast between Lee and Amanda is pretty clear! and makes for interesting tv! I've gone back now I've had a go rating the characters, to see what others came up with. Sooo to put them all together.. Learjet has gone with: Amanda: ENFJ Lee: ISTP BJo has: Amanda: INFJ Lee: ESTP (and scarecrow: ESTJ) Morley has: Amanda: INFJ Lee: ISTP (and scarecrow: ESTP) If I've gotten this wrong please set me straight! And I've gone with: Amanda: INFP Lee: ISTJ Hey.. this could be a table!! BJo? Learjet? Sooo seems to letter we disagree with the most is the fourth letter! I'm the only person who has identified Amanda as a perceiving! I thought I might be a bit different with the last one! And.. I am the only person who has identified Lee as Judging. I think Lee's military upbringing would have had him resisting this aspect of himself.. but I think eventually he accepts who he is. I also think when the show started they were at pains to portray Lee as a maverick, a rebel, whose 'methods were a little unorthodox' but... I think in general Lee's character likes to plan things - which is the judging trait - and his plans are at times unorthodox. - they are unorthodox, but they are still logical - it's just Lee's logic For me Lee's declaration that he is a rule breaker doesn't quite play out that way.. very interesting! I havent' really thought about it before! And.. looks like we differ on the first letter.. BJo uniquely thinks Lee is an extrovert.. and Learjet identifies Amanda as an extrovert.. Are you guys still thinking this? we've discussed introvert/extrovert since you first gave your suggestion so maybe you've altered it? Looking forward to hearing what you guys think of the fourth letter!
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Post by learjet on Jun 22, 2014 5:05:44 GMT
I also found the forth letter hard to pick for both of them. And that's when I resorted to overall descriptions of the combinations of the 4 letters, rather than choose J or P based on the definitions of J or P (if that makes any sense). One bit of potential evidence is the Damn Duck Lee with his obsessive list-making and being very particular about this. And both Amanda and Billy comment that this is very out of character.I think Js tends to make lists and keep to them (and love their lists) while Ps may make lists but aren't so hooked into 'ticking them off". His behaviour in the Damned Duck episode is more characteristic of an ISTJ, and suggests to me that he is more of a natural ISTP usually. (As an ISTJ, I admit to be a bit stuck on order and procedures - can be very rigid if I'm not very careful about it)
I'm also open to Amanda being an I - maybe her huge involvement in the PTA, mothers' den etc etc was related to fill the gap and sadness left by Joe's rejection (?) of their marriage and need for the stimulation and meaning that working at the Agency provides. She certainly has a big circle of aquaintances, but not necessarily "friends" (her mum seems to fill the role of friend) which would also point to introversion.
I'm also interested in the Five Love Languages (Gary Chapman) and wonder if anyone has thoughts on Amanda and Lee's love languages? I have some thoughts on these.
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Post by iwsod on Jun 22, 2014 6:25:42 GMT
Hey Learjet! I think Morley was discussing the love languages a while ago. or was that BJo - can we start a new thread for that? I'd love you guys to educate me about it! yeah the damn duck episode is curious!! Again, I think that's early Lee being portrayed that way - but looking at the show overall - I think Lee was not as much a rule breaker as he wanted to believe he was Here's the dialogue from ITCK: Alec: Uh, go on with your report, Mrs. King. Amanda: Yes, sir. Um, well, it started out with the comb with the two missing teeth, and then it went to the sagging hem, and, uh, it's gone steadily downhill from there. Alec: Excuse me, Mrs. King. What's been downhill? Amanda: Lee's behavior, sir. You see, he's been making extremely detailed lists. He's become conscious of the most minute details. He's neat, prompt, organized. You can see why I'm worried. Alec: No. Neatness and precision are expected of all our agents. (Amanda smiles, then leans over to Billy.) Amanda: Does he know Lee? I thought the point was the extremely detailed lists - not the list itself (though lol when we actually see the list? they are not that detailed ) And.. That Lee is not neat or precise. I felt they exaggerated that about Lee in ITCK to make sense of the plot! So I've picked the fourth letter based on 4 seasons of the character.. Lee starts out not neat.. I agree, Lee starts out haphazard, unconventional etc. his apartment a disaster, out partying all the time.. rah rah.. but he ends up with a very well ordered apartment by mid season 2 - I figured Lee changes.. and maybe again this is related to that idea we were talking about of how Lee becomes more himself as the show progresses. It's like he was resisting being normal Of course it might just be that I'm mistaken too
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Post by iwsod on Jun 22, 2014 6:42:46 GMT
Interesting.. how you view the P/J dichotomy seems to vary depending on the answers to the other three dichotomies..(especially the I/E dichotomy) sheesh.. this is more complicated than I thought! lol!
Looks like the test is based a lot on Jung's theories.. which I don't know well.. anyone able to explain more fully this fourth letter?
I can see what I can find later if people are interested..
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Post by learjet on Jun 22, 2014 6:45:26 GMT
Yes admittedly ITCK shows us a caricature of the excessive behaviour. (and yes I seem to remember the list had 5 short points only - and one was "Kill Billy"!!). I don't see Lee as an extreme J or P. But I do see him as quite flexible in terms of making plans, but going with the changes as circumstances change or more information becomes available (P'ness). But he does talk about a good agent having a plan and not relying on events panning out (I think that is coming up in ALLA, which I obviously know rather well because of transcribing it) which is quite a J kind of attitude.
I think people with ordered minds sometimes are externally quite messy though. E.g. I'm not very tidy but I'm very ordered (does that make sense?)
So I guess my conclusion is that he does comes across quite balanced in terms of J and P, but I just don't see the full package of Lee as ISTJ, rather as ISTP
Will maybe start a thread on the 5 love languages when I'm on a break at work and need some light relief from alcohol-related harms...!
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Post by iwsod on Jun 22, 2014 6:49:44 GMT
I just found this cool webpage www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.aspI think I need to see more clearly what Myers Briggs actually means by Judging/Perceiving. I'll try and get back later to discuss it. I think judging people are capable of being flexible so I'm not sure.. I need to explore this more to understand it (Lol I guess I am a perceiver ) Sorry this test is new to me.. but I'm happy to explore it and learn Yeah! go on start a 5 love languages thread! I'd love to hear about it! byee for now!
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Post by learjet on Jun 22, 2014 7:01:26 GMT
I just found this cool webpage www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.aspI think I need to see more clearly what Myers Briggs actually means by Judging/Perceiving. I'll try and get back later to discuss it. I think judging people are capable of being flexible so I'm not sure.. I need to explore this more to understand it (Lol I guess I am a perceiver ) Sorry this test is new to me.. but I'm happy to explore it and learn Will do. Am loving watching my learjet alternating with Lee That article made me think too - of course people can only really see what's going on in our outer worlds (unless maybe they know us very very well, in which case they have some insight into how we process information inside). Another interesting aspect of MB is what your primary and secondary functions etc are. That's when I get a bit lost...
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Post by morley on Jun 23, 2014 13:02:11 GMT
I need some time to sit with the personality types again. We did this back in January. When I took this test the one character trait that was the strongest in me was J and that really surprised me. But that helped me think through Lee and Amanda. When I get a moment I will toss that around again. The five love languages too. It will be fun to play with those as well. I do think that these things can be very subjective. For me things changed when I became a mom. My lopve languages changed and some of the character traits switched. I guess since I am on the edge between the middle one that wouldn't be a surprise. But I think that I swing because there is a necessity to swing. Maybe when my kids are grown and I don't have to micro manage so many lives in one place and schedule my personality traits will change as well. Does that make sense? As for defense mechanisms, I guess I was thinking that if a person begins to employ them at a young age, like Lee did, they may begin to identify them as part of their personality. I is remarkable that lee could change so much, actually (I know it is fiction) Some people do change a lot, like Lee did and they are able to distinguish and lose those defense mechanism, but in my experience that is really rare.
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Post by iwsod on Jun 24, 2014 3:45:01 GMT
No love languages thread yet Learjet?? Or Maybe you'd like to start one Morley? I'm interested to hear about them.. but think discussing love languages mixed up with MBTI is probably not a good idea..
I've just gotten back from the university library and guess what I found- an essential guide to the Myers-Briggs Type indicator assessment! whooo hoooo!
Not that we have to get this right or anything - but it has stimulated my curiosity about the test and I figure why not use it to learn something new? Soooo I'll have a look at what it says about the fourth letter and get back to you.
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Post by BJo on Jun 24, 2014 23:56:29 GMT
I thought the world was 30% introverts and 70% extroverts?? A lot of people think I'm an extravert for example but I'm an introvert who loves people (and finds them endlessly fascinating) but in small doses and only a couple at a time. Hey learjet - did you get your copy of Please Understand Me from your library yet? In one of the early sections, Keirsey cites Isabelle Myers work that showed the world was 25% I and 75% E. Her work was done in the 60's though, I think. I've not read her work, only Keirsey/Bates' stuff. LOL - I think you and I are very similar based on your comment here about finding people endlessly fascinating and loving them in small doses and only a couple at a time. I think I could have written those same words!
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Post by BJo on Jun 25, 2014 0:07:21 GMT
Hi Jestress - the two examples you mention of Lee's are really the two best examples of Lee exhibiting I behavior, IMO. I think there are just so many more examples of Lee being extroverted in all 4 seasons, that I don't think I'll ever see him as an I.
From what I've read on this stuff, it's all about preferences and tendencies and what each of us is more comfortable with. If I remember my research correctly, people generally don't change types, but that is not an absolute rule. We are all capable of acting like a type we are not. I's can be E's, F's can be T's, but the type has to do with your preference. My husband is a strong P, but has to act like a J in his work a lot. When he is home or on the weekends, I have to make practically all the decisions that come up because he just doesn't even want to think about anything and make decisions. He's an F too - LOL. NO thinking or deciding.
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Post by learjet on Jun 25, 2014 0:10:22 GMT
I thought the world was 30% introverts and 70% extroverts?? A lot of people think I'm an extravert for example but I'm an introvert who loves people (and finds them endlessly fascinating) but in small doses and only a couple at a time. Hey learjet - did you get your copy of Please Understand Me from your library yet? In one of the early sections, Keirsey cites Isabelle Myers work that showed the world was 25% I and 75% E. Her work was done in the 60's though, I think. I've not read her work, only Keirsey/Bates' stuff. LOL - I think you and I are very similar based on your comment here about finding people endlessly fascinating and loving them in small doses and only a couple at a time. I think I could have written those same words! I'm number 1 in the library queue for the book. I hope it hasn't gone on an interlibrary loan!! The problem with being a people-loving introvert is that people assume that you are an extrovert and then don't understand when you need space from them. I think i've inadvertently offended some extraverted friends who feel rejected when actually I just need down-time. I guess that's one of the joys of SMK - I can explore people without overload...
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